Rukna Baisioji Akis
"If it is designed to be able to do something without using programmes NOTHING is meta-game thinking."

Programs are used for automation, not meta-game thinking. Meta-game thinking involves activities such as expoliting quirks in game implementation to short circut game rules. I'm borrowing the term from Pencil and Paper role playing games, where it involves such as using out of character knowledge to benifit your character.

__________________________
SkyLords Head Programmer

Spelled: I I R I (not irii, irri, or iri).

Force of nature.

Boehm: No I took it as a joke, I used to do the same thing to players like Neggy every now and then when they started hunting me just to wind them up I just wondered why me.. seems kinda obvious now

__________________________
Make your move, reindeer games.

I mentioned programmes just to ensure my position "you should be allowed to do what is technically allowed to do" does not contain anything illegal

Harvesting is not meta-game thinking as it is not against game rules. It is just a tactic as any others, one of many discoveries made exploring game features.

Transports are designed to carry resources, not for making shield. It can be called meta-game thinking as much as planet recapture. Just commonly accepted through time. We can describe many allowed tactics as meta-game thinking.

I don't want to start the discussion about retaking. Just believe me, if it was used by watupdogg or the Swarm and not liths, the finish would never be as happened then. It is natural admins can't ever feel being not neutral using admin power. Especially when they try to be honest as much as possible. But trust me, we feel it. Small unnoticable things sooner or later forms something clear.

I don't see anything wrong if you both cooperate with someone against someone as normal players. Completely nothing wrong with naps or hunting only particular players. Some liths tends to be rude without a reason, everything is absolutely natural if some clans or palyers are treated differently. But i really can't be happy when i'm able to smell that in taking care of the game. A total nation cannot be paranoiacs

__________________________
I will defeat you. When you grow up, if you still feel raw about it, i'll be waiting.

RBA: "You should be allowed to do what is technically allowed to do"... Tell me: should I be allowed to pick a lock and take what is behind it merely because I can? Should this behavior be allowed? Because I can easily purchase a deadly weapon, should I do so and then employ it? Laws and game rules are similar, in that respect. Gtg, but I'll give you the rest of this later .

__________________________
SkyLords Head Programmer

Spelled: I I R I (not irii, irri, or iri).

Force of nature.

Laws and game rules are similar, but in another aspect: you can not be punished if you didn't break a law. Harvesting didn't break any rule, but we were treated as criminals.

The same with that "delicate accident" which was a complete failure of justice. I didn't break any rule but was punished.

My statement you took does not fit the real life, i don't claim it must be 100% implemented here too. Life is difficult, you cannot prevent humanity from evil using technical means, as your examples shows.

But your comparisson with a game is false. A game is framed. Framed in the number of buttons. You cannot purchase a deadly weapon here because there is no such button and doesn't seem to be a combination of buttons first of all Technical means do not cover very few cases only: mainly do not have another account and do not swear. The more freedom you let us in button-clicking combinations, the greater the game is.

As i said recapturing has issues to consider. But it really didn't deserve to be forbiden in a way it was forbiden, not to mention massive planet obliteration and accusations of cheating.

As for rules, we can't even call it a rule now as the post is probably already gone. Same with touching system administrator account. Really looks more like impulsive reaction than considered changes. If you'll say Iiri that a noob who discovers recapturing sooner or later with current situation deserves punishment, further discution will have no use

__________________________
I will defeat you. When you grow up, if you still feel raw about it, i'll be waiting.

Anyway, the more complex a system becomes, the harder it is to lock down behaviors using technical means. SkyLords is complex enough that this is the case -- indeed, some scientists argue that virtually any program that accepts input from users instantly reaches levels of complexity which make locking down reasonable behavior extremely difficult.

"that delicate accident" (your name for it, not mine ) was a situation where I assumed natural intelligence would be sufficient for someone to look at a planet named "Dont touch me" owned by the "System Administrator", and leave it alone. I was, sadly, proven wrong in that assumption. Yes, that was an impulsive reaction. Sadly, I am not a perfect person. However, you seem to assume that it was some form of discrimination, which it wasn't. Had it been my best friend even that had touched it, I would still have demanded the resources back.

Recapturing I have little to say about, as I didn't pay much attention to that particular situation, or the punishments given. However, I'm sure that the decision was implemented fairly to all involved.

I do agree that more flexibility is usually a good thing, but it should be carefully balanced -- the greatest games have multiple equally profitable routes to success, so that players can choose between different strategic options, to fit best with their own style of play.

Somehow I doubt I've said everything that needs to be said, and so expect that you'll be adding another post below this to let me know what I missed .

__________________________
SkyLords Head Programmer

Spelled: I I R I (not irii, irri, or iri).

Force of nature.

I didn't say anything about discrimination in the delicate accident. But you still did wrong. It wasn't the only planet name with similar meaning. And owner "system administrator" didn't tell me anything at that time. As for vets as well. Smartfox even suggessted me to tell about such huge ship to you or prof The fact is you must have announced about it earlier, only then you have a right to punish someone. You chose hiding the planet inspite of forbiding to touch it. So breaking into my account after legal action of pirating was not fair

__________________________
I will defeat you. When you grow up, if you still feel raw about it, i'll be waiting.

ANY WAY, Alot of thing that have happened in the past were questionable, and barely withing game restraints, LTC and other clans including my own have done thing techincally legal but which brought about big stinks. You can sometimes do thing in the "frame" of the game that the designers did not intend. In our case these would be considered to be breaking the "spirit" of the law instead of the actual law. If you are doing things that are not usual or meant to be done in order to "rules lawyer" it is still wrong. Zygi didn't care and that is what has led to the abuse of this kind of thinking, Proff does and is actively trying to fix them, and has stated this over and over. My beef was mainly about grey situations that have been exploited and continue to be exploited.

And iiri I'd have to agree with Rukna about the planet. If it was known it was forbidden then it would be ok to punish, if not then it would be considered fair play, questionable, but fair play since anyone could make up an acc named System admin or the like....

__________________________
Was Skylords Main banker
Ex-Doggpound Member
Ex-Redrum Member
Ex-EidG member / banker
Ex-CidG / IDG Elite Force member
Ex-AidG Leader / Banker
Ex-Shikshiena Progress Clan
Ex-Shikshiena Jrs Clan Leader

My Brain is hung like a horse :P
14th Sep

"If it was known it was forbidden then it would be ok to punish"

That is a faulty statement. If one didn't know it was illegal to murder and they murdered someone anyways, they would still be punished by law.

__________________________
A storm is coming, a storm is coming in..

20:48:19 | Professor planet 0 from paladin
20:20:21 | Arcanix planet 14 Arcanix 01

Diplomacy & Trading Forum Moderator.

Pray, you are wrong
It isn't "not knowing a law does not prevent from punishment".
There simply was no law. A post came only after i pirate that ship (it was in autumn if someone interested).

__________________________
I will defeat you. When you grow up, if you still feel raw about it, i'll be waiting.